Here are two quotations from an Anglcan theologian, which I mentioned in another post.

a)What then about the tsunami? There is of course no straightforward answer. But there are small clues.

We are not to suppose that the world as it currently is, is the way God intends it to be at the last. Some serious thinkers, including some contemporary physicists, would actually link the convulsions which still happen in the world to evil perpetrated by humans; and it is indeed fair enough to probe for deeper connections than modernist science has imagined between human behavior and the total environment of our world, including tectonic plates. But I find it somewhat easier to suppose that the project of creation, the good world which God made at the beginning, was supposed to go forward under the wise stewardship of the human race, Gods vice-gerents, Gods image-bearers; and that, when the human race turned to worship creation instead of God, the project could not proceed in the intended manner, but instead bore thorns and thistles, volcanoes and tsunamis, the terrifying wrath of the creation which we humans had treated as if it were divine.

 b)  "Death -- the corruption and decay of the good creation and of humans who bear God's image - is the ultimate blasphemy, the great intruder, the final satanic weapon, and it will itself be defeated. . . . the truly remarkable thing Paul is talking about here is an incorruptible, unkillable physical world.  New creation is what matters, a new kind of world with a new kind of physicality, which will not need to decay and die, which will not be subject to seasons and the apparently (to us) endless sequence of deaths and births within the natural order. . . . Creation, writes Paul, has been subjected to futility (Romans 8:20).  Don't we know it:  the tree reaches its full fruitfulness and then becomes bleak and bare.  Summer reaches its height and at once the days start to shorten.  Human lives, full of promise and beauty, laughter and love, are cut short by illness and death.  Creation bears witness to God's power and glory (Romans 1:19-20) but also to the present state of futility to which it has been enslaved." 

Now I ask i it reasonable to beleive in all this? Note that predation earthquakes tsunamis were going on long before  humans appeared. The earliest examples of predation are trilobites from the Cambrain i.e 550 million years ago, and earthquakes have occured for 4 billion years

also why are seasons futile. I have always thought the four seasons are wonderful in their beuaty and Godgiven.

Do any have comments on these extacts which are frankly totally contrary to any science.

Michael

But, who is the theologian?

Do others think it is poor exegesis as well?

Michael

Hi Michael

I guess I would agree and disagree.

I think that some of the stuff that happens is indeed due to the fact that human beings behave badly, sometimes we can see a discernible link and sometimes we might not be able to.

But, I think that death may always have been a 'doorway' through which transformation occurs, even before the fall, there is death and there is death after all - we can see this by the fact that Adam and Eve actually do not die the day that they eat of the fruit, as was said by God before the eating.  What does this mean?  What kind of death did God mean?  Was it deferred?

as for natural movements of the earth, I had always thought that disastrous events in nature were due to sin wracking the earth, but I am not so sure now.  I had probably been taught this, but it is not necessarily so.  The destruction that occurs with things like the Tsunami could have been limited by better understanding of Creation and not removing the mangrove forests on the coast which would have happily born the brunt of the force of the Tsunami.  There is evidence that there were peoples who removed themselves from the Tsunami's reach because they were so 'in tune' with the signs of nature that they knew what was coming - also a lot of wild animals did the same.

Perhaps we are so disoriented as to our connection with God's Creation that we are more subject to these natural movements of the earth.  Maybe the natural movements of the earth are neutral and it is the behaviour of humans that makes them destructive (badly built housing and badly positioned communities, also capitalistic worldview invading nations and building hotels where mangroves should be)

And I certainly see the seasons as something good, I love them!  I am ready for the next season and see it as an anticipation of transformation.

Jody

In fact, death awaits all that breathes and all that is.  Time to face reality ? 

'Defiled or immaculate

Inxreasing or decreasing

These concepts exist in our minds

The reality of Inter-Being is unsurpassed'

Some religious teachers and others have sought help us to face up to this.

It is not blaphemous.

Everything, everything, is transient. Perhaps we can build a spirituality on that (I do)

Yes both are by Tom wright and when I read them I was shocked and appalled. Had I been offered this when I went to OICCU meetings (Tom and I overlapped but never met) I would simply have walked out saying that this God business is a load of nonsense. I became a Christian weeks before taking my degree in geology.

Tom definitely gives the impression that he is using the Bible as a science book and thus makes that category error

His extract from the Seattle Pacific Univ lecture was deliberately long to give the context;I will comment in italics

a)  Some serious thinkers, including some contemporary physicists, would actually link the convulsions which still happen in the world to evil perpetrated by humans;Michael I would love to know who these are. There is not a shred of scientific evidence that the world has changed since creation although Youngearthers try to bring in the curse (based on a funny reading of Romans 8) to justifiy this.

 and it is indeed fair enough to probe for deeper connections than modernist science has imagined between human behavior and the total environment of our world, including tectonic plates.Michael; This is frankly just laughable, tectonic plates have been moving since the earth's crust solidified some 4 billion years ago and there are lots of records of fault movements i.e earthquakes since then

 But I find it somewhat easier to suppose that the project of creation, the good world which God made at the beginning, was supposed to go forward under the wise stewardship of the human race, Gods vice-gerents, Gods image-bearers; and that, when the human race turned to worship creation instead of God, the project could not proceed in the intended manner, but instead bore thorns and thistles, volcanoes and tsunamis, the terrifying wrath of the creation which we humans had treated as if it were divine. Michael This is basically the YEC doctrine of the Curse of Creation which cannot be supported from scripture. If so how are there volcanic rocks in the Precambrian, I found some 700 million years old - did Adam cause them?

The second quote is from Evil and the Justice of God IVP 2006 p116-7, which I have been asked to review for Perspectives in Science and Faith (see www.asa3.org) an American evangelical science and relgion group like Christans in Science. I will not be able to give it a good review, Having raved about his book on the Resurrection I was stunned at this book. On p117 he tries to draw things out of Romans 8.19-25 and if he were right I would have no option but to give up my faith. (My own take on Paul is possibly more traditional than NTW in many ways, as I am less new perspective.) I do not know about others but I simply love the four seasons as each has the their own wonderful beauty which inspires me to worship the Creator rather than think they are futile.

 As this came up I thought I ought to discuss it as the implications of what NTW has written has to make the Gospel to be nonsense as it is so contrary to all of modern science. This is rather different from his predecessor Shute Barrington d1826, Bp of Durham 1791-1826, an ultra-conservative who insisted on subscription to the 39 Articles who positively encouraged geologists like William Buckland form Oxford. He will get more than an honorable mention when I give a paper on Anglican clerical geologists at an international history of geology conference next month in Bavaria 

If we wish to have a faith which is true and meaningful we should avoid such "category errors".

Michael 

In Janunary 2005 our local paper, 'The Highbury and Islington Gazette', asked me to write an article about the Tsunami and God. CMS republished it online with permission (but with a very old photo...)

'Death by Water: Where is God?'

http://webarchive.cms-uk.org/news/2005/death_by_water_reflection_21_01_2005.htm